Comments for Jennifer Barry-Lenger

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #1 by Yoon Jeong

Yoon Jeong — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:04:10 +0000

I also have a question about who “they” are. It seems to me that “they” are women who can be saved by childbearing if they keep in faith and love and holiness with modesty in that female readers seems to be mainly considered in 1 Timothy 2:11-15. In this passage, women’s salvation is described, connecting it to childbearing. I cannot find men’s salvation here. Childbearing is not just a qualification. Women’s salvation is very limited since women have to contitnue in virtue(faith, love, holiness, modesty) as well as childbearing. It is so hard for women to be saved comparing to men.
The interesting thing is that the author of 1 Timothy uses Eve image represented in Genesis story regarding both women’s submission and their limited salvation. In Genesis 3:1-6, Eve is speaking with the serpent and gives the fruit to Adam. And Adam just ate it without any speaking or refutation. Eve is very independent and initiative while Adam is non-speaking and submissive to Eve. Eve’s authority is degraded in 1 Timothy 2:11-15. In this text, women should learn in silence with submission because Eve became a transgressor. But in Genesis 3, God did not punish women, speaking, “Shut up.” Instead, women’s pain in childbearing will be increasedn while Adam also gained pain in work. God does not seem to lower women’s authority. But the author challenge women’s authority and applies God’s response toward Adam and Eve to only Eve’s limited salvation.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #3 by Gene

Gene — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:53:35 +0000

The connection between obedience and life and disobedience and death is interesting. I find it bizarre considering that it is only through Eve’s “disobedience” that life can start. Where the fruit of the tree not eaten, Eve and Adam theoretically would never have left the Garden, and therefore never had Cain and Abel etc. Do we need to transgress in order to live a full life? Is the Garden an illusion and impossible to sustain? True by leaving the Garden we as humanity can die…but are we only able to live by leaving the “perfect” illusion behind?

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #4 by Sarah Wastella

Sarah Wastella — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:10:52 +0000

I disagree that Paul is a “known” woman hater. Could someone cite a source for that. Especially since he openly acknowledges women as foundations and leaders in the city churches.

As to the relevance to Mary Magdalene, I would have liked to see some clearly defined link to the topic for our own edification, rather than just the implied connection between two women in the Bible. It’s like studying Esau and assuming Christ.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #4 by tai

tai — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:07:59 +0000

Sarah, my “hermeneutic of suspicion” does not in any way negate Paul’s intent to adrs. the people of Corinth and provide a quasi-parabolic warning, my suspicion, largely feminist based is more concerned with his phallocentricism and his obsession with gender. When the use of gender in Paul’s language is taken into consideration, it begs the question of exactly who in Corinth is Paul speaking to? Might he be speaking to women, particularly women apostles? Who really encompasses his audience? Why Eve? Why the mention of a serpent? Clearly the serpent suggests sexual prowess as well…These are the questions that I am concerned with as a result of Paul’s words and his discourse with the people of Corinth. It can never be as simple or as safe as we want it to be…thats what hermeneutics is all about; peeling back the layers and navigating through ALL of the textual implications.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #4 by Kimberly

Kimberly — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:01:53 +0000

I also find it interesting how both Eve and Mary Magdalene are put in relation, in the Christian tradition, against Mary the mother of Jesus. Eve as the antitype to Mary (the former bringing mortality, and latter as the “new” Eve bringing immortality through her son). Then, Mary Magdalene as opposed to Mary the Mother through tradition as the sinner versus the sinless.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #4 by tai

tai — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:00:03 +0000

Beth, in terms of my interpretation of Paul, he’s a “known” woman hater and takes every opportunity to chastise women, particularly women who are deceived or are the decceivers. For me, paying attention to the gender implications here is imperative to my understanding and relevance of the text. And I’m rather confused by your statement in your last post about “Mary opening the door to sin” Really? How and where? Also, making presumptive claims about god’s judgment is a theological concern, not an academic concern, and to presume that society finds themselves immune falls under a guise of Christian assumption. Not all members of soceity are Christians, nor do they acknowledge a Christian Judge-like figure. Surely you arent suggesting all of soceity are Christians or should be…could you clarify?
And in terms of what this exercise has to do with Mary, I’d say its fairly obvious. Were are dealing with two biblically based characters, who are women traditionally scorned. We are examining two women, possibly the MOST POPULAR women in Christianity of which we know little about, but can see from the early texts through contemporary academic discourse remain to be subjects of critical analysis. Also, these two women are often associated with sin, temptation, unruliness of their gender performativity, social stigma, sex, lies, and all. And as this course has already shown us, there is so much more to the “stories” of Mary and this exercise allows for yet another feminist hermeneutic to take place on a comparable figure textually scorned.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #4 by Kimberly

Kimberly — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:58:26 +0000

I want to clarify further, I do not think he finds her evil, just that he looks down on one who can be deceived and led astray. I do not think he thinks this of her because of her being a woman (where Beth states that Paul would react the same had it been Adam) and I agree with that statement.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #2 by amy Harbo

amy Harbo — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:56:58 +0000

When I read the Genesis account of creation we were assigned, I see in it an ancient people’s attempt to explain and rationalize human suffering in light of an all powerful God.

Another way to regard Mary being used as a vessel to bring forth the Messiah (theotokis) is to read Luke in light of Ezekiel 8-11. The people were waiting for God to rebuild Zion. Ezekiel’s imagery is that of God descending to earth to inhabit the Temple and people falling to their knees in awe. How is this similar to the Lukan account of an angel coming to earth to inform Mary that God will inhabit Mary’s womb (human tabernacle) with Godself and the subsequent human reaction?

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #4 by Kimberly

Kimberly — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:56:29 +0000

I was not necessarily stating that Paul saw Eve as evil by any means. More so, and I may be repeating myself, but I think Paul is just using Eve as a an example–where the Corinthians are to be careful to not be deceived as she was.

Comment on Comparing Eve: Group #3 by Kathleen

Kathleen — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:50:40 +0000

What’s interesting to me about what Eun Ji and Drea have said is the strange implications of keeping Eve/women submissive - the reason women must be obedient and submissive is because they’re too powerful. Women have the power to bring death/life into the world (which has a serious impact on men), and so must be relegated to a certain place/role etc to keep the world ordered properly.
(This makes me think of the Tiamat myth and the connection between the feminine and chaos)